Lessons From That Signal # 5 Fiasco
Sep. 15th, 2017 06:08 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
melodyofmysoulArashi celebrates their 18th formation anniversary today, and I somehow have to apologize for writing this. But there's no better time to talk about it than now, I suppose, while the issue is still fresh.
A subbing community, Signal # 5, advertised on![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
a_ra_shi that they were going to open applications for membership. Normally, announcements of this nature are welcomed with open arms. Despite LiveJournal being a relatively dead platform, people revive their accounts to apply in the hopes that they will be admitted. For this particular community, the response (from what I saw on Twitter, anyway) was overwhelmingly negative, and - at least in my opinion - with good reason.
(Fair warning before proceeding: This post will be long, and will likely not contain any form of summary. Any advice I give are based purely on my own experiences. I have been a long-time consumer of subbed videos, a translator and QC of a subbing group, and currently head moderator of a site that shares raw files of Arashi shows.)
I'm breaking the post down into what I feel are three main reasons for the backlash, and how it may have been avoided. (There is a fourth one, but since I have not yet confirmed if that is how they still do things it would also be unfair to them if I would include it here.) Click on the Read more links to expand further.
POST UPDATES
Sept. 17th:The community is back up, and the personal LJ and DW of the head mod is back as well. Parts of the post have been updated to reflect this new development. I have also added the following:
Disclaimer: This is not a call to boycott the group, or to send them threats. If you choose to send them criticisms or suggestions, please be polite. Although it is essentially up to them how to interpret comments, it is obvious that engaging them in a harsh manner is unacceptable.
To quote part of their extremely lengthy Disclaimer (emphasis is part of the original):
This is alarming for many reasons (some of which I'll be discussing in the third point). But for this one, I'll delve into the language bit.
Capturing context is important, but relying a lot on just context is not always a good thing because the information that is captured may be lacking at best or inaccurate at worst. The same goes for relying on previous information; there may be new information in the present context that is not captured.
One can argue that formal study is not necessary to be able to translate. That can be true, but only in very rare and exceptional cases. I know someone who passed JLPT N2 without any formal lessons, but she always made it a point to read books as well as converse with native Japanese speakers. She now teaches the language in an IT firm.
Placing that kind of Disclaimer conveyed two things to me: 1) The OP doesn't care if her Japanese isn't good, she'll continue translating anyway, and 2) She will not entertain any sort of criticism regarding possibly incorrect translations. This is careless behavior, because if we really want to introduce Arashi to fans we would want information about them to be conveyed as accurately as possible.
Translation, even when done as a hobby, should be treated with care and respect. So much effort goes into translating even the shortest sentences. Apart from being concerned about accuracy, there's also the matter of making the translation relatable to the target audience, and in cases of video translation its readability as subtitles.
Even if Arashi can't and shouldn't see what we're doing, we owe it to them to properly convey to fans how amazing they are. Churning out good translations is a big part of that.
If I were the moderator, I'd probably word this part of the disclaimer as follows: "I am currently learning Nihongo so the translations may not be perfect. Please send a message if you spot any corrections and I will edit the subtitles accordingly. Thank you!" Short, sweet, and sincere. There's no need to be on the defensive, especially if you do not yet have the skills to back it up.
The application process is part and parcel of most, if not all, communities involved in translating content related to artists of Johnny's and Associates (J&A). This is because distribution of such content is illegal and is actually punishable by law, so some communities take that extra step of at least trying to get a profile of those genuinely interested in procuring the videos for personal use. Over the years, communities have gotten creative in screening applicants. Apart from the usual questions such as "Who is your favorite member?" or "What is your favorite song?", some have taken to inserting keywords for applicants to find, or asking them to deliver witty one-liners. It seems ridiculous to an outsider, but the fandom in general likes to err on the side of caution.
Gaining admission to locked communities isn't usually a problem despite numerous questions being hurled at by the communities, For Signal # 5, however, the list of items to answer is so ridiculous. Some have compared it to a college essay, others to a job application. I'm inclined to agree because even as an Arashi fan of 7+ years I find it difficult to answer a favorite drama and movie for each member. That part alone was already worth 15 lines. However, that wasn't even what made my eyes roll so hard.
One question that stuck with me is "Is it okay for you to watch subbed videos which are, sometimes, not accurately translated? Why?" (Thanks to the person who was able to provide screenshots of the original questionnaire!) Frankly, it seemed that the questions were asked not simply for the sake of asking. Rather, they were trying to sense if an applicant will potentially give a criticism to the group in the future. Again, I will delve on this further in the third point.
I saw that the head moderator was a member of other communities, so I feel she should have taken their cue from them. If your aim is really to share videos, there are ways to do it without coming across as elitist or difficult to deal with, and all the while trying to guard from those who want to leech off you and make money from your hard work.
I would honestly have let the above two points slide if this third point was not evident in the group's Disclaimer, as well as their interaction with potential applicants and other more experienced translators and subbers who tried to extend a helping hand.
To quote a huge part of the Disclaimer (Emphasis theirs, ellipsis indicates partial redaction):
Incorrect usage of English grammar rules aside, I have numerous issues with this.
People who provide corrections should not be obliged to explain the why's and how's, especially if the recipients claim to know which criticisms to follow and which to brush aside. The moderator was asking to be spoonfed, plain and simple. No one should use being a translator as a free pass for Japanese lessons. Even novice translators should already be equipped with enough knowledge of the language to do their own research when someone makes a correction. If one can't even be equipped with that, then maybe reconsider if translation is something that you would want to do.
Nitpicking translations can actually be a good thing, especially with such a blatant acknowledgement of the lack of formal study. If one can't even accept the simplest of criticisms and will interpret every little bit of critique as one coming from a place of hatred, contempt, or any intention other than something good, then no productive learning will come out of it. I have been reading accounts from those who have tried to help them, and I found out that they normally brush suggestions aside.
Don't expect to be coddled in fandom. We love our boys and we try to get along, but respect begets respect. If you want people to respect your efforts for subbing, then in return you should also learn how to read criticisms and not be oversensitive when someone provides a correction or suggestion. Seasoned translators have gotten to where they are because they actually knew how to learn from their mistakes.
tronella has left a comment on this post (thank you!) stating that when she gave advice to the main subber/admin, the latter seemed to be responsive and even asked for more tips which tronella has willingly given. That would have been fine and dandy, however winkychan's experience differs greatly.
Winky gave a legitimate criticism on subtitle timing as apparently there have been instances where some lines in their videos lasted less than a second on the screen. She then pointed out where Aegisub indicates that. Head mod/subber replies that they don't use Aegisub but a basic video editor because the former eats up a lot of memory. Dubious explanation aside, the answer they gave to Winky's comment was to include that limitation in the disclaimer, along with the translation inaccuracies.
If I were them, I would have at least tried to learn using Aegisub first before dismissing it as an option for subbing. I myself do not yet have the patience to learn timing (though I have attempted it a few times), but that is also why whenever I would want to translate a video I would seek out a Timer to help me. I acknowledge the fact that I'm not good at everything in relation to subbing.
The international Arashi fandom is always growing, and everyone knows more subbers will make everyone happy. But we also need to assess if what we are doing will help the fandom or if it will just be a detriment.
As Signal # 5 and its head mod (who still doesn't seem to understand why the criticisms are actually warranted) seem to be back in business, I hope everyone will at least be aware of the quality of the subs they claim to provide before considering joining the group. Also, do not be afraid to point out any mistakes as politely as possible. It is not wrong to do so, especially if it will be for everyone's benefit - especially theirs. We strive for correctness in this fandom because our boys, even though they are not supposed to see our work, deserve nothing less than for their good reputation to be spread in the most accurate way possible.
I sincerely hope other fans will be aware and will gain something positive from this experience.
A subbing community, Signal # 5, advertised on
a_ra_shi that they were going to open applications for membership. Normally, announcements of this nature are welcomed with open arms. Despite LiveJournal being a relatively dead platform, people revive their accounts to apply in the hopes that they will be admitted. For this particular community, the response (from what I saw on Twitter, anyway) was overwhelmingly negative, and - at least in my opinion - with good reason.(Fair warning before proceeding: This post will be long, and will likely not contain any form of summary. Any advice I give are based purely on my own experiences. I have been a long-time consumer of subbed videos, a translator and QC of a subbing group, and currently head moderator of a site that shares raw files of Arashi shows.)
I'm breaking the post down into what I feel are three main reasons for the backlash, and how it may have been avoided. (There is a fourth one, but since I have not yet confirmed if that is how they still do things it would also be unfair to them if I would include it here.) Click on the Read more links to expand further.
POST UPDATES
Sept. 17th:The community is back up, and the personal LJ and DW of the head mod is back as well. Parts of the post have been updated to reflect this new development. I have also added the following:
- A disclaimer as to the nature of this post - I don't want people misinterpreting this as a call to boycott the group. However, I will provide a warning at the bottom of the post about what to expect based on previous disclaimers they have put up.
- Anecdotes from people who have interacted with the head mod - This includes both the positive and negative ones (because I have received positive feedback also). If you would want to share your own experience with the community, just leave a comment here or contact me on Twitter: melodyofmysoul_.
Disclaimer: This is not a call to boycott the group, or to send them threats. If you choose to send them criticisms or suggestions, please be polite. Although it is essentially up to them how to interpret comments, it is obvious that engaging them in a harsh manner is unacceptable.
Brazenly acknowledging a lack of formal study in the language
To quote part of their extremely lengthy Disclaimer (emphasis is part of the original):
You have been informed about this from the very start, so do not complain: Please be informed that the main subber of this community has no formal Nihongo classes, so please forgive us for some inaccuracies that might come. However, we shall do our best to make our translations as accurate as possible. We don't literally translate everything, so we just surmise it from the context of the situation or what has been previously said in the show.
This is alarming for many reasons (some of which I'll be discussing in the third point). But for this one, I'll delve into the language bit.
Capturing context is important, but relying a lot on just context is not always a good thing because the information that is captured may be lacking at best or inaccurate at worst. The same goes for relying on previous information; there may be new information in the present context that is not captured.
One can argue that formal study is not necessary to be able to translate. That can be true, but only in very rare and exceptional cases. I know someone who passed JLPT N2 without any formal lessons, but she always made it a point to read books as well as converse with native Japanese speakers. She now teaches the language in an IT firm.
Placing that kind of Disclaimer conveyed two things to me: 1) The OP doesn't care if her Japanese isn't good, she'll continue translating anyway, and 2) She will not entertain any sort of criticism regarding possibly incorrect translations. This is careless behavior, because if we really want to introduce Arashi to fans we would want information about them to be conveyed as accurately as possible.
Translation, even when done as a hobby, should be treated with care and respect. So much effort goes into translating even the shortest sentences. Apart from being concerned about accuracy, there's also the matter of making the translation relatable to the target audience, and in cases of video translation its readability as subtitles.
Even if Arashi can't and shouldn't see what we're doing, we owe it to them to properly convey to fans how amazing they are. Churning out good translations is a big part of that.
If I were the moderator, I'd probably word this part of the disclaimer as follows: "I am currently learning Nihongo so the translations may not be perfect. Please send a message if you spot any corrections and I will edit the subtitles accordingly. Thank you!" Short, sweet, and sincere. There's no need to be on the defensive, especially if you do not yet have the skills to back it up.
Unnecessarily stringent application process
The application process is part and parcel of most, if not all, communities involved in translating content related to artists of Johnny's and Associates (J&A). This is because distribution of such content is illegal and is actually punishable by law, so some communities take that extra step of at least trying to get a profile of those genuinely interested in procuring the videos for personal use. Over the years, communities have gotten creative in screening applicants. Apart from the usual questions such as "Who is your favorite member?" or "What is your favorite song?", some have taken to inserting keywords for applicants to find, or asking them to deliver witty one-liners. It seems ridiculous to an outsider, but the fandom in general likes to err on the side of caution.
Gaining admission to locked communities isn't usually a problem despite numerous questions being hurled at by the communities, For Signal # 5, however, the list of items to answer is so ridiculous. Some have compared it to a college essay, others to a job application. I'm inclined to agree because even as an Arashi fan of 7+ years I find it difficult to answer a favorite drama and movie for each member. That part alone was already worth 15 lines. However, that wasn't even what made my eyes roll so hard.
One question that stuck with me is "Is it okay for you to watch subbed videos which are, sometimes, not accurately translated? Why?" (Thanks to the person who was able to provide screenshots of the original questionnaire!) Frankly, it seemed that the questions were asked not simply for the sake of asking. Rather, they were trying to sense if an applicant will potentially give a criticism to the group in the future. Again, I will delve on this further in the third point.
I saw that the head moderator was a member of other communities, so I feel she should have taken their cue from them. If your aim is really to share videos, there are ways to do it without coming across as elitist or difficult to deal with, and all the while trying to guard from those who want to leech off you and make money from your hard work.
Refusal to accept constructive criticism
I would honestly have let the above two points slide if this third point was not evident in the group's Disclaimer, as well as their interaction with potential applicants and other more experienced translators and subbers who tried to extend a helping hand.
To quote a huge part of the Disclaimer (Emphasis theirs, ellipsis indicates partial redaction):
We might not have the proper Nihongo classes, but then, we know what criticisms to follow and not. We take each critique with a grain of salt and as a learning experience to improve the future subs. So if there's an error in our subs and you corrected it, you have to bear the responsibility of explaining it in full detail why it is an error..."
And as such if you are able to explain it well, we will acknowledge it and correct the error, then make it a basis to further make our subs accurate in the coming projects.
Also, can you keep it discreet? If you want something to be corrected, message us instead. We understand the need to give fangirls quality subs, but sometimes, nitpicking is somewhat negative to the ambience of the happy fangirling life, added the fact that this is not an academe or a workplace, but pure leisure where there is a greater room for mistakes to happen.
Constructive criticism is fine as long as you are aiming to correct a person to make him/her better. Also, in the context of subbing communities, if you cannot devote time to reach the right methods and rules for Japanese grammar and linguistic mechanisms because of the lack of time and be fully trusted by those you want to critique, do not even bother to correct. That's how we see it.
It would be a great negativity if it is not truthfully or sincerely aimed for the betterment of the person who has made the mistake.
Incorrect usage of English grammar rules aside, I have numerous issues with this.
People who provide corrections should not be obliged to explain the why's and how's, especially if the recipients claim to know which criticisms to follow and which to brush aside. The moderator was asking to be spoonfed, plain and simple. No one should use being a translator as a free pass for Japanese lessons. Even novice translators should already be equipped with enough knowledge of the language to do their own research when someone makes a correction. If one can't even be equipped with that, then maybe reconsider if translation is something that you would want to do.
Nitpicking translations can actually be a good thing, especially with such a blatant acknowledgement of the lack of formal study. If one can't even accept the simplest of criticisms and will interpret every little bit of critique as one coming from a place of hatred, contempt, or any intention other than something good, then no productive learning will come out of it. I have been reading accounts from those who have tried to help them, and I found out that they normally brush suggestions aside.
Don't expect to be coddled in fandom. We love our boys and we try to get along, but respect begets respect. If you want people to respect your efforts for subbing, then in return you should also learn how to read criticisms and not be oversensitive when someone provides a correction or suggestion. Seasoned translators have gotten to where they are because they actually knew how to learn from their mistakes.
tronella has left a comment on this post (thank you!) stating that when she gave advice to the main subber/admin, the latter seemed to be responsive and even asked for more tips which tronella has willingly given. That would have been fine and dandy, however winkychan's experience differs greatly.Winky gave a legitimate criticism on subtitle timing as apparently there have been instances where some lines in their videos lasted less than a second on the screen. She then pointed out where Aegisub indicates that. Head mod/subber replies that they don't use Aegisub but a basic video editor because the former eats up a lot of memory. Dubious explanation aside, the answer they gave to Winky's comment was to include that limitation in the disclaimer, along with the translation inaccuracies.
If I were them, I would have at least tried to learn using Aegisub first before dismissing it as an option for subbing. I myself do not yet have the patience to learn timing (though I have attempted it a few times), but that is also why whenever I would want to translate a video I would seek out a Timer to help me. I acknowledge the fact that I'm not good at everything in relation to subbing.
The international Arashi fandom is always growing, and everyone knows more subbers will make everyone happy. But we also need to assess if what we are doing will help the fandom or if it will just be a detriment.
As Signal # 5 and its head mod (who still doesn't seem to understand why the criticisms are actually warranted) seem to be back in business, I hope everyone will at least be aware of the quality of the subs they claim to provide before considering joining the group. Also, do not be afraid to point out any mistakes as politely as possible. It is not wrong to do so, especially if it will be for everyone's benefit - especially theirs. We strive for correctness in this fandom because our boys, even though they are not supposed to see our work, deserve nothing less than for their good reputation to be spread in the most accurate way possible.
I sincerely hope other fans will be aware and will gain something positive from this experience.
no subject
Date: 2017-09-15 10:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-09-17 02:39 pm (UTC)